NBC "TODAY" INTERVIEW - LOWELL WEICKER, FORMER GOV OF CT.
and RUSSELL VERNEY, REFORM PARTY CHAIRMAN

7:07 A.M. (EDT) - MONDAY, OCTOBER 4, 1999

KATIE COURIC: On Close-up this morning, the Reform Party. The fallout continues over Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura's controversial Playboy Magazine interview, which hits newsstands today. Among other things, Ventura called organized religion "a sham" and described the 1991 Navy Tailhook scandal as, quote, "much ado about nothing," end quote. On Friday, Ventura was asked to leave the Reform Party by the party's own chairman, Russell Verney. Mr. Verney, good morning.

MR. VERNEY: Good morning, Katie.

MS. COURIC: Why, in your view, should Jesse Ventura leave the Reform Party?

MR. VERNEY: Along with the privilege of being a leader -- and Jesse has injected himself in the national media as a leader of the Reform Party -- comes the responsibility of representing the values of that organization you want to be the leader of. The values of the members of the Reform Party are 180 degrees away from those expressed by Governor Ventura that organized religion is a sham, people who practice faith are weak-minded, need a crutch, that somehow you can excuse sexual assault where 83 women were assaulted in the Tailhook incident is much ado about nothing, and to insult every person with a weight problem in this country by saying that fat people have a gland problem; they can't push way from the table. It's just beyond the pale. That does not represent the values of the members of this Reform Party.

MS. COURIC: Mr. Verney, in an interview on Meet the Press that aired Sunday, Governor Ventura had this to say about your request.

GOV. JESSE VENTURA: (From videotape.) And if one interview in Playboy Magazine constitutes bringing shame and someone should resign from the party, well, I guess -- I think they have ulterior motives.

MS. COURIC: Are there ulterior motives at work here, Mr. Verney? I mean, some say this is personal. After all, earlier this year Governor Ventura supported the new head of the Reform Party, and some say this is payback time.

MR. VERNEY:  Katie, nobody made Governor Ventura make those statements in Playboy. Those, he says, are his honest views. We didn't ask him. Nobody asked. He did support a candidate for chairman of the party, but I was not running for re-election. It was nothing personal against me. I had no skin in that game. So this is not about Governor Ventura and my relationship, which I've always felt was fine. I've had a great relationship with him. My problem here is the values he expressed are completely opposite of the values of the Reform Party. And the first principle of the Reform Party is to set the highest ethical standard for the White House and for Congress. And by insulting every person with a weight problem, by telling organized religion they're a sham, is beyond the pale.

MS. COURIC: All right, Mr. Verney -- okay, what about Ross Perot? Does he agree with you?

MR. VERNEY: No, I suspect he's far more upset about it than even I am, and I'm -- there's no way you can say that military men have the right to grope women.

MS. COURIC: But does Ross Perot think that Jesse Ventura should leave the Reform Party, as you do?

MR. VERNEY: I haven't specifically asked him. I'm sure he would think that that's the case, as do tens of thousands of members across the country.

MS. COURIC: One person who thinks Governor Ventura should stay put in the Reform Party is former Connecticut Governor Lowell Weicker. He's an independent who is considering a run for president on the Reform Party ticket. Governor Weicker, good morning to you.

MR. WEICKER: Good morning, Katie.

MS. COURIC: Do you feel comfortable with Jesse Ventura as a member in good standing of the Reform Party?

MR. WEICKER: Well, first of all, I'm not a member of the Reform Party. And as far as Jesse is concerned, clearly his remarks were over the top. But having said that, I don't think we go ahead and take a man who's done very well as governor and who certainly brings a positive, up to this point, perception of reformers, I don't think we take him and throw him out on his back. I remember, you know, it wasn't a while back that a man who I very much admire, Jimmy Carter, said something about lusting in his heart, and that created a furor. So --

MS. COURIC: Well, this is a little different than that, though, isn't it?

MR. WEICKER: No, I think that -- I think what we judge a man on is his performance. He's been a good governor. And, listen, I'll tell you another thing. Fifty-four percent is not a bad approval rating for most governors, even though it might have taken a nose dive.

MS. COURIC: Governor Weicker --

MR. WEICKER: I don't see -- the other thing I don't see, Katie, is Russ Verney moralizing on Jesse Ventura when he embraced Pat Buchanan, who tried to restate history and redefine Hitler. I think that's something --

MR. VERNEY: Governor Weicker, I have not supported anyone. What I've said is that if Lowell Weicker, Donald Trump or Pat Buchanan want to come to the Reform Party, there's an open, fair, democratic process by which they can present their credentials to the members, and the members will make their decision.

MS. COURIC: We'll get to --

MR. VERNEY: But any leader of this party who speaks out with hate towards religion, hate towards people with weight problems, and excuses sexual assault, has lost the authority to be a leader in this party. They're welcome to those views, and that's what independent candidacies are about, where the one and only individual is responsible for what's said. But as a representative of a national organization, he bears the responsibility to address the values of that organization. They are not expressed in that Playboy magazine.

MR. WEICKER: I don't think that's been Jesse's career. Jesse got elected because he spoke freely. He always has. I think America is looking for somebody that goes ahead and tells it like it is, even though we don't agree with Jesse on this particular set of remarks. People are looking for candor. God knows the man has that.

MS. COURIC: Mr. Verney, let me ask you --

MR. VERNEY: Candor is one thing --

MS. COURIC: Mr. Verney, excuse me. Let me interrupt for a second. You know, Pat Buchanan said some pretty interesting things -- interesting, I guess, is one way of describing them -- in his new book about Adolf Hitler during World War II and what the allies did to stop Germany's aggression. Do you feel comfortable with those remarks, for example?

MR. VERNEY: First, Pat Buchanan is a Republican. He's not a leader in the Reform Party. If he wants to come to the Reform Party, he'll address those and any other statements that he's made in the past with respect to whether they really reflect his views or they're someone's interpretation of his views. But this is not about Pat Buchanan. This is about statements that Jesse Ventura made that are contrary to the values of the members of the Reform Party.

MS. COURIC: Meanwhile, Governor Weicker, over the weekend, you said in a speech, "The Reform Party is on the verge of becoming a joke." And that same night, coincidentally, it was spoofed on Saturday Night Live. Let's take a look.

(Excerpt from NBC's "Saturday Night Live.")

ACTOR: (Parodying Ross Perot.) Gentlemen, I think we all know why we're here. Now, the Reform Party needs a new crazy leader. Maybe it'll be Pat Buchanan or maybe Donald Trump, but it sure as hell won't be me. Apparently, fellas, I wasn't insane enough for the American people. Now, what we need is a real nut bag.

(End of excerpt.)

MS. COURIC: So what do you think, Governor Weicker? What can be done to keep the Reform Party from becoming such a joke?

MR. WEICKER: Well, I think they've got to concentrate on issues. I mean, there are big issues out there in this country, whether it's health care, violence in our society, education, diversity. You know, we've got to present ourselves as a centrist party with centrist candidates covering a wide range of views. And personalities don't carry the day. We can't make a mistake. The Republicans and Democrats have all the money and the power. They can make all the mistakes in the world, and they do. But we've got to address reality in America, and I think that that's our job. And I don't really get involved with any of these personalities. They're not the issue.

MS. COURIC: Mr. Verney, are things getting a little too weird in the Reform Party? I mean, is this the party no one wants to be invited to right now?

MR. VERNEY: No, I think it's exactly the opposite. You know, we've been in existence legally two years, Katie. And to have this kind of recognition, even though it's making fun of it a bit, the public knows that we're here and we're a player. I do appreciate Governor Weicker's use of the word "we." He has never been a member of the Reform Party. I welcome him to the Reform Party. There's plenty of work to be done. There's more than enough opportunities for leadership in here. I welcome him to help build the Reform Party, an alternative to the Republicans and Democrats in this country.

MS. COURIC: So, Governor Weicker, in closing, A, do you want to become a member of this party? And, B, are you interested in running for president on the Reform Party ticket?

MR. WEICKER: Number one, I'm not interested in becoming a member of the Reform Party. I DID address the AMERICAN REFORM PARTY, which is the CENTERIST BREAKOFF GROUP from the Reform Party itself. Number two, as far as the presidency is concerned, that's premature. These are decisions that are being made now. But I do know this. I want to win. And you can't win with split allegiances, as you're seeing out there right now, or the perception that the people that are running just aren't qualified to be president of the United States. This is serious stuff. It's not funny.

MS. COURIC: All right, Governor Lowell Weicker and Russell Verney. Gentlemen, thanks so much for talking with us.

MR. VERNEY: Thank you.

NBC "TODAY" INTERVIEW WITH:

LOWELL WEICKER, FORMER GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT

and RUSSELL VERNEY, REFORM PARTY CHAIRMAN

7:07 A.M. (EDT) - MONDAY, OCTOBER 4, 1999

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